The Label Machine Podcast #17 – Isabella Bedoya (Fame Hackers)

The Label Machine Podcast - Ep 17 - Isabella Bedoya - Fame Hackers

On this episode Nick Sadler sits down with Isabella Bedoya, a former A&R of Sony Music and the founder of Fame Hackers, a platform designed to help independent artists grow their fan base and explore digital revenue streams.

Join us for a candid conversation regarding music entrepreneurship, digital marketing, release promotion, content creation, paid advertising and much more!

NICK SADLER: Welcome to The Label Machine series, where we discuss with our guests how artists and record labels sell music. Today's guest as Isabella Bedoya, think I've got that right. Isabella is the founder of Fame Hackers, a forward-thinking music company that helps music artists become digital creators for their fans so they don't have to rely on traditional music revenue streams. She's coached over 1700 independent artists, music marketers and record label owners and has been featured in the biggest media platforms in the world, including NBC Radio and ABC News. In short, Isabella has successfully and does successfully help artists grow and monetize their fanbase. Isabella, how are you today?

ISABELLA BEDOYA: Hey Nick, thanks for having me here today.

NS: Cool. As I mentioned before we started, I'm so excited about this, genuinely, I really think like looking over everything you've got, we've got very similar ways of approaching things and helping artists out. So, yeah, really excited. First question is a nice, easy one. So how did you get started in the industry and where did that take you to, you know, being now running Fame Hackers?

IB: Yeah, this is a good question. I kind of made my way in the industry. I have actually a kind of a creative story. I became a private chef first, then got a job in Beverly Hills as a live-in private chef. And then as soon as I moved to Beverly Hills, I then went to like literally every music industry networking event I could. And I just started making connections. And that became an A&R for a label under Sony and in Hollywood, West Hollywood.

NS: Nice. And that was under Sony, wasn't it?

IB: Yeah… and there were a lot of hip hop and rappers.

NS: And so how did you get that? Did you just go, right, I'm going to make this happen and just hustle and bustle? Money work?

IB: Yeah. Like I went to literally every- back when I did this, Facebook events were like a thing, I don’t know if you remember, you would just go on Facebook and they had like all these events listed. So I went to everything. The second I landed in L.A., like the first night, it was like pre-Oscars or something like that.

So it was like all these events and it was cool because I was like, it wasn't necessarily “the” event, but it was industry events. So it's just meeting like connections. I think the first people I met were… where I came from Florida, so this is not like normal, but the first people that I met, my first event, it was like the CEO of Playtex. Someone that had to do something like the entertainment industry for like 20 years. And then I just started becoming like friends, like not trying to social climb, just become friends. And it led to introductions and, you know, that's the power of networking.

NS: Yeah. I mean, I'm originally from New Zealand, came to the UK to get into the music industry and did the same thing, just networking, networking… You should probably add that as well. Like sometimes you're like, “Oh, I just want to stay at home tonight, it is raining or something” and you're just like, “no, you said you were here to network!”

I mean, I gave myself five years. I was like, just go and do it, you know, don't go party. Just go meet people and be friendly. And it's, it's the name of the game it totally works out to.

So you're now working or, you know, founded and set up Fame Hackers. So can you give a quick rundown of what you do there? Like what your main activities are at Fame Hackers?

IB: Yeah. The biggest thing that we do is we help artists monetize their music. A lot of the, you know, a lot of the the questions that usually come around is like, the way people do it. They usually try to go like the e-commerce route and like sell merch, and stuff like that. So we actually created a way to sell digital offers. Basically digital offers, it can be anything that you can do online without having to deliver a physical product. And so that's a lot of our time goes into helping artists and just music entrepreneurs in general to setting that up for themselves.

NS: So I'm just going to jump, I'm going to jump back and forth on a few things. So you talk about these digital offers. So like what are some creative ways to, to generate revenue that you find are working for artists and labels that don't rely on streaming revenue?

IB: Yeah. So there's three, three big ones. So the first one is if you want to branch out and do your own, like excuse me, if you want to do like your own coaching program, if you want to do your own courses, your own mentorship, if you think about it, all the people entering the music industry, they don't necessarily have to be your fans, but even a small percentage of them will look up to you and will want to pick your brain. How did you do that? How did you create that beat? So why not create a program around it where they can actually, you know, pay you some money? The second one that's also really effective is creating like band experiences, fan clubs. So this doesn't necessarily just mean, “let's set up a Patreon” because Patreon, you got to do a lot of content for like ten bucks a month.

So what you actually want to do is you want to figure out what is the need in your audience. And this can be, you know, let's say, for example, your music is all about, I don't know, escapism, right? So maybe a travel club would make sense because you guys get to travel together and we do a travel club - now you're actually charging even more.

And then the third one that's really effective is affiliates, right? So a affiliate basically means you know, let's say your song, and this is an example, let's say your songs are about like self-love and self healing. Well, your audience is probably also seeking for support in self-love and self-healing. So when you release your song, you can do a whole virtual party and you can position a life coach or a relationship coach on the back end so that whenever you're done with your whole promotion, you now have someone to refer them to and you become an affiliate with that coach or that business. And then you can funnel your traffic their way and then they just send your affiliate commissions. So they’re really like the three top ways to make revenue online right now.

NS: So yeah, the people that are listening, an affiliate means you sell someone else's product on behalf of them and you get a commission on the back end, yeah. So just and, just stepping back to this second idea where you said, you know, you were creating music that is around escapism. So you start a travel club. Like what, what does what does that actually mean?

Like what is a travel club? Like what is, do people pay to be in it? And then what do they get if they're on this travel club?

IB: Yeah. So I'll give you like an example of an influencer, for example, she is really, really funny. She has nothing to do with travel, but she's very like, she's a comedian. And what she does is she actually, because her personality is so like magnetic, like you can see all the people in the comments like oh my gosh I want to, you know, I wish I could hang out with you.

So she actually created travel packages like, oh, I'm going to go to Italy, I'm going to go to Bora-Bora, I'm going to go to Cancun, whatever it is. And then she now sells it to me, to her audience, like, hey, come travel with me. And then the pricing for that, you know, it's like $2,500, $3,000, because you're including a whole itinerary for like a weekend or so with your friends.

And even saying those price points, I know some people might automatically think, “Oh, no one's going to pay for that,” but there's always like the select few and all you really need is the select few to actually hit revenue goals.

NS: No, I completely agree. And I think anyone that's listening, we would, we would actually just discussing this before, before we recorded is that, you know, there's something called in this world, I guess, “high-ticket offers,” I guess in the digital product world. And I think at first, high ticket offers, you know… and outside music I see high-ticket offers like $5,000 or $10,000, you know, but for setting something up and you think, yeah, but that probably works if you're setting up a real estate business or something because there's lots of money in it and music now doesn’t got any, you know, any money, but it's not true. Like you can sell these high-ticket offers of two, three, four, $5,000 and you only need a few people and yeah, once you do it a couple of times, you realize there are people out there that have that money. Yeah. So I'm completely on board with that. I think another idea is, there's a guy, Danny Savage, and he does trips to Ibiza and he gets ten people and they all go to Ibiza and he does it around like, mostly around music production stuff.

So you go out there and then he flies in producers and you hang up together, make a track together, another idea. So it’s interesting I asked you about what you mean by Travel Club. As soon as you mentioned it, I knew someone doing something similar.

IB: Yeah, I mean, it's cool. Like, think about it. If you have like a favorite artist and they offered to take you on a trip with them, like it's a really fun experience and that's the thing, like the first two ideas that I shared, one of them was coaching. The second one was experiences. Just as a reminder. Also, like in the creator's economy that we're in right now, that's the two things that people invest in: learning and experience. So it's also like playing along those rules.

NS: Yeah, that's a really good point. So you mentioned the comedian and she's doing her travel club. Are there any other artists or labels that you have or currently work with that have run a particular campaign that you're quite proud of?

IB: Yeah, I mean, there's, there's, there's quite a few like, even from a person that's just also give… actually let me give this as an example for people that are starting out. Because I know if I talk about the big ones, what usually happens is like, “Oh, that's never going to happen for me.” But I'll give you both so there's an artist that I'm working with. He is an amazing, like super, super amazing producer, vocal engineer and he actually like, he's been in this industry for a really long time, but he doesn't have a large following. So he launched his offer the way that we do the launches is through like virtual events. So like bootcamps, workshops, virtual parties, whatever it is. And so he launched it, and not a lot of people came to it.

But the cool thing is that after like a three- or four-day workshop, all of his efforts turned into like $2,100 - something that he was, you know, never, he would have never been able to do if he didn't have a system like this. And then when you have the system, you just rinse and repeat and rinse and repeat and then it grows every time.

So that was really empowering to see like how someone from like scratch to be able to do that. We've also had other cases where they do like, like the self-love is another really good example because I actually was turned into a life coaching opportunity, there's another one, for example, he launches like kind of NFT practice or his advisory, and it was awesome too, because I know everyone wants to learn about NFT’s. Everybody wants to get like crash courses. So he does like a three or four day hackathon and people actually show up and, and they go to the that they go, they learn and then it transitions into a larger project. And the cool thing was that there was someone that, I think he was more of a, he came from like a label background and he showed up to his virtual event. And then it turned into this whole like advisory and consulting for a big organization in the NFT space. So it's like you never really know what's going to happen until you do something and you get the exposure and then the people that you attract.

But yeah, it's, it's really awesome. I think like the highest one was we helped someone that was launching like their own “how to write a book” program. And I think that was like one of the, the coolest ones because like, within the first again, it was like a five day bootcamp, how to write your book, whatever. And then on the back end it turned into like $40,000 on the first weekend – granted, they had a larger audience and their offer was a little bit higher ticket, but first weekend it was 40K and then when you did the payment plans, it was like a six figure launch. So that was like I think probably one of the coolest ones so far. Well, yeah, I mean there's a variety.

NS: I was, it was the writing a book was that was that like just a creative… I was going to say not customer, kind of customer for you, or someone you worked with or was it was that actually like a musician, You said, I'm now going to teach how to write books?

IB: No, that one was a creative, it was a creative entrepreneur. So yeah, it really depends. And this kind of also goes back to what you were saying of in the music industry, you're in the music industry, the high-ticket pricing is different, but when you're thinking about your offer, it's very, very important to think about the purchasing power behind the audience demographics.

So if you're targeting something for like indie artists, there are ways to make high ticket work, but you just have to be really good at like delivering the value, what they're actually getting

NS: If your audience is like 16- to 18-year-old recent high school graduates, you're going to be struggling to do high ticket offers.

IB: Yeah, yeah. For I mean, for the most part, there's always a select few. And also if you if you think about it, if a 16 or 17 year old can buy like $1,000 iPhone that they can probably invest in a program, is just how you position it to them.

NS: Yes. Yeah, you're right. Actually that's very true. So another question. Why do you think artists need to think of themselves as music entrepreneurs?

IB: Yes, this is a really good one. And there's actually a viral video going around by Kanye right now. So a music entrepreneur, basically an entrepreneur is just someone that goes into business as an artist. For the longest time, we've been taught as a society, we've been conditioned that an artist gets discovered when they get discovered. The whole team does all the work. And, you know, if you want to go the label route, that's totally cool. But even if you go to a label route, you still have to do a lot of the legwork yourself. You still have to, you know, figure out your social media, grow your fan base and all that. And if you understand that you're a music entrepreneur, then you understand that those are income producing activities. Showing up online, posting a TikTok. That's an income producing activity. It might not be immediate ROI, like it might not be immediate cash coming into your bank account, but you do that enough times and you grow, and then you have brand partnerships. You know, A&R’s are knocking at your door. So when you think of yourself as an entrepreneur, it just, it just creates a little bit more discipline. The viral video by Kanye right now, he pretty much says, like, artists should think of themselves as businesses. And then he compares like there's a bunch of kids in school going for like business management and stuff like that. And then he compared like Travis Scott and he was like, well, there's only one Travis Scott. Doesn't he deserve to have like thousands of employees to actually fulfill his vision and he should be the CEO? And that makes sense because I think that's kind of like the era that we're living in right now. And the creator's economy, right? It's like, artists are the CEO’s. Their music is their creation.

NS: Yeah. You. Yeah, I mean, the thing is, I completely and utterly agree. I mean, my whole philosophy at The Label Machine is the monetization of music, like once you've gone and created the music, right? You need to, you now need to turn it into money, essentially. And there's all different, everyone's got different courses and ways and doing that. But ultimately, the record label is the whole mechanism and company that is only designed to take music that's created and make money out of it. So like, why reinvent the wheel? And if so, you either need to sign to a record label like the Uncut Gym or whatever, or you need to think like a record label when you need to do all the things that a record label does, like, do the marketing, show up and, you know, create your funnels and all that kind of place.

So I completely agree. However, I do want to ask you this question because I'd love to get your perspective on it, which is what advice would you give to somebody who's simply just wants to make a living making music, like they don't have or they don't want the capacity to be an entrepreneur?

IB: Yeah, I mean, this is a good question. There's, there's ways around it if you just want to do music alone. Our focus on building a culture, right, or a community or especially because if later on you want to transition into NFT’s, that's really big right now, you're going to a community. Community is what's going to give your project longevity, but if you can build a community, like if you can rally people up over the subject of your music or something that you really believe in, then it's going to be easier because you can continue just doing your music. And then you can do, for example, brand partnerships. Brand partnerships, you know, they pay a lot of money if you have quality audience and not just that, but also you can sell your music via like funnels and stuff like that. But it's just going to take… it's just a numbers game. Like if you were to sell, for example, one song for like a dollar and you were just like, “Hey, I'm not putting this anywhere else, you know, because Spotify is not going to pay me money,” but you are going to have supporters. But again, you're selling your song for like a dollar, like $10 or something. So you just have to have strength in numbers, so it goes back to social media. You need social media.

NS: You need to have an audience really, don't you? Like, so I guess that the answer, the answer is in some way, you can't just, if you just want to make music and isolation with no audience, then you can't be expected to get paid for it. Because if you don't have an audience or you don't have a community, well, you're just in a shed by yourself making music, I guess.

IB: You know. Yeah, I mean, if you think about it, right, because you're in like syncs, like music supervisors now, they're actually wanting to see audience like a fan base, right? When you look at booking shows, they want to also see audience because then they, all these what people would call gatekeepers. They're not really gatekeepers. They're actually just seeing like, “can your music bring in more people to our cause?” Because more people to our cause means more money for the business. So really is like a whole business thing. But yeah, they just don't want to do the entrepreneurial route. They can just focus on building a brand and building a community around them and then that, you know, they'll be able to find ways to monetize that as well.

NS: Or going to, like go into business or someone find a partner like a business manager to take care of all that stuff for you and form a business partnership where they are the entrepreneur or they'll take over all of that kind of stuff. And you do the music, which I think a lot of, I think a lot of partnerships and that I've seen in the music world, especially like I've seen, I've worked with a lot of producer duos and there always does seem to be one of them is more of the musician and creative of the studio and the other one is more they're like out there, you know, like doing the bookings, like putting the shows on, all that kind of stuff.

I also just wanted to mention for people that are listening as well about building up those numbers. And you rightfully said that as everybody wants to see, have you like even music supervisors, have you got an audience? And a really important metric people are looking at because it's a lot harder to break It, is how many listeners you have on how many monthly listeners you have on Spotify, because everyone knows you can kind of buy even like with Facebook advertising, your Instagram numbers, your Facebook numbers, you know, like even if you're not going to some dodgy website, you can sort of still amplify these numbers. But I think it's very difficult to do that with Spotify, very hard to get the fake numbers. So I think and that's why a lot of people, like, I don't want to focus too much on Spotify. I think it's still really important, at least for the next few years. I mean, would you agree?

IB: Yeah, that was actually the first thing that I learned as an A&R was like if the Spotify, if it doesn't make sense, like if they have, for example, like 20,000 monthly listeners and they only have like 1,000 fans on Instagram, then something's off. Right? So yeah, I definitely agree. I think at the end of day when you - and this is also like advice from when I used to do influencer marketing campaigns - even if you fake your following, you're only hurting yourself because when you get down to brand partnerships, they don't care about your numbers, they care about your engagement. And if you have a low engagement, you're not going to be able to generate that money back. So they're not going to want to work with you again. So you can burn the bridge really, really fast.

NS: I mean, I wholeheartedly agree. It is so funny, though, even when I explain to people it's no point in having vanity metrics as you're just shooting itself in the foot and they're still like, “Oh, but I just don't want to look like I've only got 5000 fans. I'll stop at 10,000,” and then they'll and no, and I've been through this with someone and I was like, fine, like, you know, we'll get, we'll go to 10,000. They got there and now and you know, they did that very quickly now it's like go negative, focus on junior followers and now, you know, they're like, I can't seem to get people like on board with stuff and it's like, well that's because you know you're used to getting this fast growth because you know, you're doing Facebook ads and Instagram ads, you know, but they weren't necessarily people that would have genuinely, you know, especially if you're targeting the cheap countries and things, they aren’t people that are engaging with you. And, you know, even though I'm like, I told you this would happen, and they still complain.

IB: Well, I don't know if you, if you read like Instagram's report in 2020, at the end of 2021, but they actually broke down the algorithm and they said that if you have like a large account with like a bunch of unengagedz inactive or big followers, your account actually is considered a low quality account. So they're not going to push out your content, they're not really going to do much for you. But if you actually have your account and you have like real people, active people, and you're doing your job engaging with them and engaging with all the people, the algorithms, not really necessarily testing all that, they're just seeing the amount of time spent on the platform, the amount of time people spend on your content, and that all of those activities lead to the decision that, hey, this is a quality account. And when you have a quality account, they're going to push you out. They're going to put you on the Explorer page, they're going to make you put you on the feeds. So it also, it even goes to like an algorithm level. Having the fake audience or having an active audience is just harming you.

NS: I mean, that's the, there is, there was a question actually that our listeners seem to find. It's great that you know about the Instagram so she's, like she's got the last seven days. She's reached over 3000 accounts and 2000 of those don't follow her yet. She had 700 profile visits, but they're not converting to followers. Like she's only had like 15 followers in seven days. Like, do you know what might be going on here? And like any advice, find kind of fixed the issue.

IB: Yeah, a couple of things. The first one is, does the actual content on, on her Instagram, is it like a landing page? Like if I see it and, and just at a high level you know overview, can I relate to it is it similar to the content that's performing well like it kind of has to act as a as a brand. Right? So if if it does act cohesively, then there will be a higher retention. Now secondly, if people are not converting, it could also be because, I don't know, it depends of, you know, she's doing reels or she's just jumping on trends. It may not necessarily be like ideal followers anyway. So there's a lot of factors that go into it. Yeah. It could just be… yeah.

NS: She did say she does a lot of reels and they do seem to do well. So I don't know whether or not they, yeah, she's getting like people liking the reels, but like you said, it's not the right people to click on a profile maybe.

IB: Yeah, that's another thing too. You know how it used to be like you need like seven touches for, like, marketing?

NS: Oh, I got that all the time.

IB: Yeah. Now it's like 12 or something.

NS: Oh, really? Is that is it OK, I need to update my mythologies.

IB: Yeah, it sounds like of the 12 and I mean I've caught myself doing this too, where I’ll see someone do something and I'm like, ah that's funny. Or like, oh I want, you know, they're cool but I won't follow them right away. And I've caught myself like, wait, why don't you follow them? Because now I'm like hyper aware of it, but that's normal people. They're watching your stuff and until they see it a couple of times, then they'll hit follow.

So that's why it's really important if you are doing Reels, if you are doing TikToks, stick to the like the niche or the demographic that you're going into, because if they see you a couple of times, then you'll have a higher retention than if you do, you know, one travel video, one funny video, one video actually singing a song. It's completely different, like demographics. So just stick to one thing and just do it over and over, over again so you can build that relatability and that consistency.

"if you fake your following, you're only hurting yourself because when you get down to brand partnerships, they don't care about your numbers, they care about your engagement. And if you have a low engagement, you're not going to be able to generate that money back. So they're not going to want to work with you again. So you can burn the bridge really, really fast."

NS: Yeah, gotcha. I mean, I completely agree, especially on TikTok, I think you really have to do the same thing over and over again. So I've got a I've got another kind of almost case study question, a hypothetical situation. I'm a singer-songwriter. I'm in Austin. I work part time as a coffee barista, and I have a medical bill of $3,000 that I need to pay off in 90 days. What the exact steps I should take to make that money.

IB: This is a good one.

NS: Good. Do you like that little set-up?

IB: This is a good one. Well, so actually, let me ask you, can I ask you a question? Through them? And so the coffee barista, what else do you what's your music about?

NS: So it's folk music. So I'm a I'm a singer-songwriter. I guess I mostly kind of, I sing about like relationships, let's say I'm a yeah, I'm a female. And I had, I sing a lot about relationships because it's you know, I had some hard ones when I was it, you know, when I was at university. And I often sing about that. Does it help?

IB: Perfect. Yeah. So I have an idea very first thing that you can do well, I mean, there's, there's a few, but just the easiest one. If you… So it's called like a lead magnet funnel. I mean, I'm sure you probably heard of it, but for the people listening a lead magnet funnel is basically a two page funnel where you give away a digital download in exchange for someone's email and contact information. So what I would do is I would go on TikTok. I would do like, like funny, relatable videos about relationships point, the point of views or perspectives like those kind of videos. And then I would actually create that lead magnet funnel and put that as my link in bio and the lead magnet funnel, it can be anything like you know, three tips to break up with the wrong person or three red flags, something that has something to do with like the relationship aspect of things.

And then that will get people that are clicking. They'll actually start clicking for your download and that when you start clicking the download, now you have an email list, you have a text messaging list. And then what I would do if you're in a 90-day runway, within the first month, you can actually gather them together in like a zoom call or something and then get to learn more like just like a meet and greet: get to learn more about what they do, what they, what they're going through, whatever it is. And then based on the questions, based on the responses, you can then launch a virtual party, virtual event. You can bring in, you know, a relationship coach if you want to and just charge load ticket: $27 to $47, launch that and then by like the second month you should be able to actually launch your whatever that virtual thing is.

And then on the back end that's where you offer them something of higher value. So as soon as you're done with your whole virtual party on the third day or the if it's one, if it's a one day thing, then you save those towards the end if it's a three day party or intensive or whatever, you save it for the third day where you say, “Hey, how to continue in my community, join my fan club or join my my affiliate, join my coaching” so you can do all of that in like a two to three, three month period.

NS: Nice. Yeah, I think that was that was very key. That first question was finding an interest that you can identify that you can identify an audience with, isn't it And what's interesting as well is it's the same thing I have with any of my members when, you know, a popular thing we do when you're trying to find your audience on Facebook because you ride on the coattails of others.

And I'm like and something that I often do and this works really well with any kind of high energy music, rock or electronica, is the kind of people that listen to that offering to sports. Right? And so they're often into like sort of sporting brands. So you can go and say, cool, target those people that like those, you know, like snowboarding brands or surfing brands.

And it works. It works really well. And I often try and say to my members, like, what's something you do outside of music? You know, like, I play games or I'm a snowboarder and I'm like, cool. Like, that's your thing that you should now go with to make you differentiate between all the other musicians out there that you want to find your audience that a) like that thing and then like your music. So I guess that's a similar kind of thing, isn't it? Except you're like, you're making it way more like, your hyping it up and also I think you're monetizing it in a really smart way. And, and I guess and saying to somebody, that's where you've got to think if you want to be a music entrepreneur, and, and earn more money outside your normal music royalties and live gigs, which is, which is essentially a big thing you're kind of pushing, isn't it?

IB: Yeah. Yeah. Because if you think about it, you know, it's like if you do sell something like a virtual and for like $47, you know, you get, I don't know, like ten people in and that's $500. And then you sell something for like a thousand, 2000 on the back end, you know, you only need to sell a couple to actually make the 3K, so yeah, it really, it really depends.

But, but that's, you know, going back to what you were saying, Nick, about how it really is finding that one thing and it can be anything, right? Like I know you also mentioned as this example of a barista, like you can just grab your phone while you're working at like Starbucks or whatever and start recording there's a lot of people who have actually gone viral for recording themselves at Starbucks or Goldstone's or whatever, you know, just make yourself memorable with what it is that you actually want to project into the world.

NS: Yeah, totally agree. And just be comfortable doing that as well. Yeah. And have you got many of your clients where you've seen it work really well where they are, you know, they still are releasing a single every couple of months or any favorite couple of months and it's doing well. You know, they're doing like, you know, they're doing maybe a summer tour or something like that. And then they're also doing a one of these like other alternative income streams and have married quite well. Have you seen it?

IB: Yeah. So this is actually something new that we're starting to, to integrate, I don't feel like the past like I think more than a year it's been solidifying that strategy and really launching the, the offers and actually starting in May, we transition the, the program a little bit so that there's actually space for them to actually create their music and go and kind of make it go hand in hand.

One thing, though, that one thing that we're still testing and I'll share with you guys, but it's if you launch your single as an experience, and an experience, again like Zoom, you can go in the metaverse, whatever. There are the subjectivity of it. And if you launch it as an experience on the, on the last hour or like the last day, excuse me, that can be your release day.

So let's say that, you know, I don't know, like the relationship example. So you have like, OK, three red flags, right? That's your lead magnet. That's your download. So the first - I like to do multiple days because when you do multiple days, it's not just a one hour thing. So selling them on to the next thing is easier because they've have, they've built the trust and like and rapport with you.

So I like to do multiple at least two to three days minimum. Anything above five days it's too long. You're going to lose attention. Your conversions are going to hurt but what I like about this is that, you know, on the first day you can actually just talk about, I don't know, the mindset of being in a relationship. The second day, you can give some practical tips and then the third day you can actually say, OK, like let's journal together about this, right? Let's journal about what we learned while we listen to my new song that's dropping right now. So now you have all the people on a Zoom chat or in a Zoom room, and they're going to go stream your song with you. Like that's immediately, kind of forcing them to take action. Because a lot of times we're all like, listen to my song, and then the whole day goes by and people forget about you. So that's one way you can be more proactive.

NS: And then if they really like what you're doing, and they've got a connection with you, they're going to be like, Well, I've got an EP coming out where you download it and it's going to be and people will, I mean, I, you know, I do this all the time. If I if there's someone who I'm I even have to say they don't even have to be a friend or an acquaintance or a friend of a friend.

And they've got, you know, they've got a new musical or album. I will blindly buy it to support them because, you know, I know it's really hard what they're doing. And I kind of want to support them and, you know, and if there's someone I like and I like what they're doing, it's kind of a way of me. And, you know, I don’t necessarily like all the music but will listen to it, but it's because I have that connection with them. I think they're really cool. I want to support them, and so I end up doing it. I think, you know, I think that's really powerful.

IB: Yeah, it's, it's really cool. And that's also another thing, too. And like the creator’s economy, people actually like fans have voted and they did a whole study on this. People actually support their favorite creators based like purely out of altruistic tendencies, like just because it makes them feel good that they're supporting their favorite creators.

NS: I mean, that's the psychology behind Patreon, isn't it? I just, Patreon… I don't know. I can't, I don't always recommend it's like the actual platform because the few people I know that have done it, they kind of got burnt out with the amount of content they keep having to create and like, the amount of money they're getting at the back end, they were like, “We could have just written an album and probably made more money.” I don’t know. What's your experiences with it or your thoughts on it?

IB: Yeah, I'm not a big fan of Patreon also because their fees are like 10%, so in the beginning it might not be too much, right? But if you get $10,000 from your patron that they're taking $1,000 just for software, and that's not really fair for the artist, right? It goes back into the whole ownership because who's providing all the work, the traffic, like it's a lot of work.

Patrons are for like ten, $20. It's a lot of work you have to put in. I think it's only effective when you have a large following, like if you have, you know, like, like a thousand, 2000, 3000 people joining, then of course it makes more sense.

NS: Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. What rookie mistakes or coming problems do you see over and over again that new or early career artists make?

IB: A rookie mistakes? Hmm. You know, I think one of the things and this is like very common in the music industry, but I think running ads without really knowing much about your music or who you are or anything and I know there's like a whole market research behind that. I know you can use it to help you find your fans in your audience, but in every other industry running ads right from the get go, you have actually like a back-end offer. You actually make money from your ads. You can put more money into ad spend. I think if you are going to run ads and if you are in the discovery process, that's good. But just make sure you have some sort of offer in the back where when they're going through your process, you can actually make that money back and resell and like actually keep your ads active because that's one of the biggest things that I see people jump into ads. They either a), they don't really know what they're doing. They don't even know who they are yet. And the biggest problem is that they stop after they run out of like $200 or something because they don't have a way to keep feeding it. So I think that's the biggest thing. Just find a way to make that ad money make you more money.

NS: Yeah. And so by that office, I actually have like, you know, even like a small merch pack or something available, like I see a sticker and you know, badge pack or something for like five or $6 that just paid. That helps, you know, you only need what, three or 4% actually go and buy that and that money goes back into the ads, right? Yeah, I completely agree. Or at least say I'm but because, you know, like if you're, if you're let's say you just want to build up your Spotify streams in the first two weeks, so the algorithm kicks off at least like know that that's what you're spending your money on. And then it's that and you're not expecting to like, well, hang on, but why am I getting like massive royalty checks, you know, just understanding the maths? And then I think, you know, you're more comfortable with that.

So yeah, I mean, speaking on ads, though, when we, I guess speaking not on ads. So drawing on your music experience, like how would you grow your fan base without paid ads in 2022?

IB: Yes, this is a good one. Without paid ads is actually what we what we do without paid ads. You can just focus on TikTok, Instagram Reels and also finding other people that have your audience and then partnering with them, doing events with them, doing Instagram lives because what you're tapping into with that is influencer marketing without necessarily tapping into the full paid influencer marketing.

The second that you find someone that has a bigger audience than you, don't just directly jump in and expect them that they're going to want to help, you actually have to build a relationship because if they've worked really hard for that audience, they're not just going to want to give you access to that, right? Build a relationship, build the connection, provide value to them in whatever way that looks like. And, and that is one of the easiest ways because that's like you're transferring the trust, essentially. And so let's say that and we've seen it in like the hip hop world. We see it all the time, right? People actually buy features. So it's something very similar where it's just partner with them. Do lives, do… you know, virtual concerts, whatever it is.

The other two ways are TikTok and reels. These are like as long as you create content, the easiest way to grow on those is just pick a niche. Like pick a demographic for your audience and then just create content that relates to them. And you can do that with your music. You know, you can definitely like artists are blowing up on there. I think last year I think it was they, they signed like 80 artists from TikTok. So yeah, it's, it's, it's one of the biggest tools for artists in music discoverability right now. Yeah. TikTok. You say TikTok/Reels. And that's because what's very easy just to upload your TikTok on to Reels, right? When you're done, who would not do. Yeah. So I mean, even if there's even software that would take off the little TikTok logo. So Instagram thinks it's an actual native video and what penalized you so much.

IB: Yeah, yeah. I think one of them is called like Snaptik or something. And then there's IG download or something. Yeah.

NS: So I yeah, I want to just on, on the partnering up with people as well. And you mentioned hip-hop and doing features and doing collabs. What are some of - and I think I'm asking too selfishly for some of my artists - what are some other ways where you can see that value as being, ideas for creating that value?

Let's say, yeah cool, I want to work with somebody but you know, they've got like a hundred thousand followers. I've got 20,000 followers, you know, everyone knows what's going on. You want to work with them because they've got 100,000 followers. It's like being transparent. But what are some, you know, what are some ways of, of creating value and assuming that you're, you know, you're being respectful and you know, let's say you meet on Instagram and you're messaging and being respectful and commenting on stuff, what are, what is some way that you could say offer that value?

IB: Yeah. They have a bigger presence. The likelihood that they're on the news is so much higher. So I would just keep tabs on them, like figure out if they mention, I'll give you like a, like an example of right now, like there's this artist that I know that he has a way bigger audience. And my approach is usually like this template that I have and I'll share it with you guys.

So always address the person by their first name for like, hi first name and then compliment them on whatever they're actually working on something that actually makes them stop and say, this is not a template and it's not it's just a framework, right? So, so you give them a compliment you tell them something that, you know, you, you actually relate to a resonate about what they're doing. And then you ask a question. The question can be simply something like you know, are you working on anything in particular or anything maybe like you don't really want to give them homework. A lot of people say, hey, if you need help with anything, let me know. And it's like, well, I'm not going to let you know. I don't know who you are.

So I actually just ask them like, you know, I saw on the news or I saw on Instagram you mentioned that you're working on this, you know, just wanted to learn a little bit more about it. And then because you started with the compliment, it would be kind of rude that they don't answer back. Right? So that's kind of like the hack because like the compliment lowers their guard and now they're going to look like jerks if they don't answer back.

So that's kind of like a, that's a really good calling, a prospecting cold outreach method. And then from there, but really, before you reach out, you really want to do your homework because if you can actually provide value from the get go, like, “hey, so you're releasing this song about this. And, you know, have you reached out to this music supervisor? It might be a good sync placement.” That's one way to to provide value. Just sharing resources, sharing tips.

NS: Yeah. No, I you know what? That is a banger of an idea, sharing tips and sharing resources cause you can build up a whole arsenal of them. Right? And then you can share the same tips with various people. I mean, that framework you were saying about reaching out, using their first name, complimenting them. I mean, you know, I think that's how I think I reached out. And I don't have a template, but I go in and I think, well, I want to work with Isabella. Like, what does she do? She does the Fame Hackers, that's really awesome. And I think I asked I said, I think what you're doing with Fame Hackers is awesome.

And it's the same kind of thing, isn't it? And you go cool, like respond. And then you get a conversation happening. And then here we are like, you know, doing a podcast together.

IB: Yeah, that's exactly it, that's exactly it.

NS: So I'm going to I want to ask some sort of selling music trend questions. So some of these I'll skip over. So I guess on and I know you, I know this isn't necessarily something you're as focused on these days, but for record sales, where do you find the royalties are coming from? From the major platforms of Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon, Tidal, know from you with the artists that you're working with currently?

IB: You know, I think this is a little bit difficult to say because I know that Spotify just had a huge scandal you know, where people are taking their music off and stuff like that. And I know some of the artists that we work with, they just like removed all their stuff from Spotify. But so actually, I don't think any of the artists that we work with are on Tidal, even though I know Tidal pays more but I think the biggest focus that they have is Spotify and Apple Music.

Apple Music. I've been hearing amazing things about Apple Music lately and analogous to like the chatter around it has been Spotify. A lot of people just remove their songs. I don't know if it's, I still don't know where I stand on that, if it's smart or not. A lot of that.

NS: Is that because of the Joe Rogan thing?

IB: Yeah. And then Neil. Yeah, I was in the R I think in the early so like I said something that it fueled more fire to it… there's a couple of artists.

NS: Yeah, I know. I know what you mean. I'm set up because I've been a few of my members have asked me like, “we’ve seen this, should we take our music off?” And I'm like, “It’s for you to decide, I guess.” I mean, I yeah, it's a tough one. I probably... It's a whole there's a whole new podcast, I guess. How do you find with with music royalties, though, like vinyl and CDs are still selling and they're still relative?

IB: I think it depends on your audience. I really think it depends because if you were to sell like vinyl for like a hip hop artist, I don't think that would sell as much as like someone like Pop or someone. Right. So or even like an EDM artist may have some success with it. So I think it depends on your audience.

NS: Are I mean, I mean, we find people still buy CDs and even I don't know who buys them because I don't know anyone with a CD player.

IB: Yeah.

NS: I wonder if that is just what we're talking about earlier of just people want to support their favorite creators. And if I'm like, you're my favorite creator and you're selling a CD, I'll buy it and then I'll stick it on my shelf. I'm never going listen to it because I don’t have a CD player but I've supported you know, maybe that's just simply that.

IB: Yeah, maybe I have, I have a couple cases like that too, where I don't have a CD player and they're there. And also like I know it's a little off of track, but like Redbox, like the DVD players, the DVD things are still outside of the stores and it's crazy because I don't have a DVD player. I don't think people have DVD players anymore. So… people are still renting them.

NS: Yeah, I so. I mean, I work in film as well. And the thing about that is people, if you really like love film, you want 4K experiences on DVDs and there are people that and plus there's collectors link to it. I mean, it's not so much Redbox because you're renting, but I think that's what it is. They want that high fidelity experience and they've bought all the equipment, right?

NS: And they're like, you know, Netflix doesn't deliver like what I can get off my 4K Blu ray, and I think that's what comes out. Whereas I think with music, it's not so much the style, but I have to say, you know, how vinyl kind of came back and played people with vinyl players and all that kind of stuff? I, I believe that there's going to be a, in the next five years, a new generation of kids that have kind of come through, they're going to buy CDs from like thrift stores and they're going to buy cheap CD players and it's going to be like cool to have a CD player when you have like a dinner party and you'll see these like I was like, oh my God, it's like it's of the nineties. Like, I'll put it on and it's going to be a thing. I put money on it.

IB: I can see that now. Yeah. Like when you paint the picture like that, I can definitely see that.

NS: Like all the it'll cover all the hipster kids, right? Yeah. I mean, it will become the hipster thing to do. To get like a CD player and then, you know, that whole generation will fall in love with it.

IB: Yeah.


"...in every other industry running ads right from the get go, you have actually like a back-end offer. You actually make money from your ads. You can put more money into ad spend. I think if you are going to run ads and if you are in the discovery process, that's good. But just make sure you have some sort of offer in the back where when they're going through your process, you can actually make that money back and resell and like actually keep your ads active..."

NS: So blogs, music blogs. Do you think there's still relevant today?

IB: Yes or no? I think it depends what blogs you're in because there's also a lot of places that. So it helps for multiple reasons. If your blog is like a Google News accredited site, it actually helps towards getting your blue checkmark. So it's not a bad idea. However, you just have to make sure that it's not just like, you know, a blog that someone just has to sell you placements because those are really going to take you very far.

NS: So let's just rewind there a little bit. You set up a blog. Is a Google accredited website?

IB: Yeah. For example, like the L.A.? No, we've done a lot of different partnerships with L.A. and they're really cool because they actually like they open up their submission portal every so often and you can submit they're not you know, at this point I don't think they're charging anything. And I know that it is a Google accredited site. So what that means is that if you got a couple of these when you submit for your blue checkmark verification, it actually one of the questions on Instagram, it says list your places where you've been mentioned and they'll usually look for like, you know, Forbes Business Insider, like these billboard, Rolling Stone, these bigger things. But if it is a Google News approved website, it will also have the same weight that the big magazines and the big blogs have.

NS: That's very interesting. I did not know that, it's really good and that you meaning the blue chip that the blue tick you get on…

IB: Yeah. The blue check on Instagram.

NS: That verified tick. Nice. Oh, that's good to know.

IB: It just goes back to like search engine optimization and people actually searching for you.

NS: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. We yeah, I mean, we sort of talked about paid advertising. Is that still my feeling is it's not something that you do use a lot of, but you know your artists use it and if you you know is there any tips that you've seen that work well or things to avoid any failures?

IB: We use paid ads very, very little. But we do have an artist that it was, we tried everything with him, we tried like Instagram, we tried everything. And the best performing, the best performing material we had with them was a Facebook ad. So just like the typical running a Facebook ad, what we did actually is we took it one step further and we had the video view ad. So you're like targeting this is kind of like you're pulled audience, right? You're just targeting all the fans of X, Y, and Z and all those people into the video view ad. And then one of the things is the actually having a chat like the manychat are going to the messenger ad and having a Facebook group going at the same time.

So the third ad being, “Hey, my name is so-and-so. And if you like this kind of music and you're into these kind of subjects, then you should probably join my group because we're going to talk about these things.” And it's been growing and like the community is growing in that way. There's also like that cascade of like, you have your followers, but you have the people that want to be closer to you in the group.

NS: Yeah, that's good to know. We talked about Instagram and TikTok… On social media, what platforms… and I guess it all depends on what kind of music. So maybe framing this around some particular styles of music, which platforms are you getting you're finally getting the best response for engagement between YouTube, somehow Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and TikTok?

IB: So TikTok it's a little bit different. TikTok. You would couple TikTok with Discord and Spotify. Those are like the best the common practices.

NS: TikTok, Discord and Spotify.

IB: Yeah, yeah. Some people will promote their SoundCloud and that's fine. I know SoundCloud has like a big push right now for indie artists and they're doing an amazing job, but that's typically what you'll find is the artists will have a Discord, which is like their Facebook group equivalent. This is where you're people I want to get closer to. You want to just be part of your community. They'll go there and then Spotify is like the main place that people get sent to yeah.

NS: And as Discord something that's like really grown in popularity, do you think that's something that I guess it's for the younger, like, demographics are into it and Facebook, and Facebook groups is maybe people are like, that's fit anyone over the age of 30?

IB: Something like that. So it's also taken in consideration the who uses a platform the majority of people on Facebook they're not going to be a lot of Gen Z, and more Gen Z is going to be, you know, even though TikTok now has I think like a billion monthly users or something, this is crazy. There was a stat I read, it was something around the lines of like I think they have 1 billion monthly users. And I think the people that actually create content is like one or 3%, which is like so low for the amount of users that they have.

NS: It's crazy because it used to be 50/50, 2 years ago, it was there's like half the audience was creating content on TikTok. So now what you're saying is it's just watching.

IB: Yeah. Which is like so crazy. And it's like so much room for growth. So, but anyways, so about you're asking something else you're asking me about it.

NS: So I just ask about your what platforms?

IB: That.

NS: TikTok, Discord and Spotify when I was talking about. So it's interesting as well. You kind of put Spotify as like, I was sort of trying to say social media platforms, but in some ways you're sort of putting it under that umbrella, like what's the thinking behind that or are you just more thinking platforms in general?

IB: Well, I was thinking like people like what they do is they put their link in bio, they put out their Spotify, so TikTok is like the thing that drives traffic and then they drive the traffic to their Spotify. But Discord is also something that's really big because that's what we were talking about, the age demographics. Even if you are over 30, like, it still shouldn't be a thing that you're afraid of, of looking into because in the future, when NFT’s does actually take over the music industry, right now, we're still the very beginning, but the whole side of the industry is being built on Twitter and Discord so if you spend some time every single day, you know, going on the discord, chatting with people, getting to know people, getting to learn about NFT’s things, getting to learn about the community that you could be building, it's only going to be easier because we already know based on like the research statistics and everything, it kind of seems like Facebook and Facebook groups are in a decline you know, there's a lot of speculation that Facebook is a dying platform. So building something on a dying platform is kind of like scary, knowing that there's other solutions out there. There's another one, too, I heard about and I've heard really good things. It is a paid platform that's called Circle. And this is another good one for like content creators also to build their community there. And it's just like at the interface and everything, there is a fee to it. Discord is free. That's the only difference.

NS: I've heard about Circle, it is pretty good. So we've mentioned NFT’s a few times, and I did want to ask you, do you think that NFT's like any, do you think music artists should be paying attention to NFT’s now? And how do you think they're going to be utilized in the future?

IB: I think NFT’s and cryptocurrency in general is something that, you know, everybody should be paying attention to. Maybe it won't be like the thing that defines you right in this moment, but in the next three to four years, definitely, not just for like the fact of like I need to be educated, but also for the fact that, like, it's an opportunity that we have. And a lot of the times we all miss opportunities and then look back and say, “Oh man, I should have done that.” And when the Internet, you know, the Internet was starting, there was a whole rush where people were getting like their websites and they were blowing up their blogs. And, you know, looking back we were like, “oh, man, we should have, you know, run the traffic.”

And then the same thing happened with TikTok, came around. A lot of artists are like, “oh, man, it's so saturated now.” I should have started with TikTok, right? We've seen it happen time and time again. So with NFT’s it's one of those things of like, if you're in it right now, everyone is learning. So you're not, you know, you're not going to be like the odd guy out. You're not going to be like a fool. Everyone's learning. So you get to learn with the community. And that's a cool thing because everybody actually wants to help you succeed. So as long as you go in, you know, you have good vibes. You're not just trying to screw people over. People are actually going to want to be your friends because they want to build that and the people that get involved with it now or within the next couple of years, they're going to be at the forefront of it. So, you know, five, ten years down the road, whatever they're like, Oh, look at all the big artists. That's because they put in the work like today. And I think that's pretty much the differentiating factor is time is going to pass anyway. You might as well do something that's already headed into the future.

NS: Yeah, I mean, I agree. I'm, I'm old and I've, I've got a decentralized crowdfunding platform.

IB: That's awesome.

NS: So I'm totally in an interestingly enough, you know, until November last year, you know, I had a Metamask wallet that I've been playing around with. And then, you know, I just had I own some like Bitcoin and Ethereum that I bought years ago, luckily, but I didn't really know much about it. And it's incredible how much resources and like you said, how much help there is out there, like it's such an amazing with the Web3 community, everybody's really friendly and nice and want to help out and there's no like clicky groups I mean I'm sure that would probably come but it's just not there now and it's really amazing. Like I have to say it's a great place. I mean if there any particular you know, are there any particular projects worth looking out for in the music NFT space, and I think with and also keeping in mind the ability to fractionalize royalties and share that with your fans because that's what I, that's what interests me and I know there's been Oculus have been talking about doing- Opulus, Opulus have been talking about doing it and that was supposed to launch last year and they didn't. Yeah. Is there any platforms to keep an eye on or any thoughts on that?

IB: Yeah, I actually just had a, a virtual conference at the beginning of this month and we had a whole panel on NFT’s and, and stuff like that. And there's two people from, so the founder of Dow Records there, they're definitely like, they're up to like really cool projects. So his name, I think his name that he goes by in the NFT space is Vandal.

IB: He's pretty well known. And then there's another one too, that was really cool. Beatriz and the guys are Beatriz. They're also working on really cool projects to do, like virtual gigs and stuff like that. And I think they've already done that. I think they did a bunch in the last year. I can't remember if they did one weekly or once every two weeks, but I think those two projects are really, really cool in terms of like the actual communities and stuff like that. I know there's a bunch and I think the biggest things are just keep an eye for is when you are going through these communities and when you are going through the projects, just figure out like if, what is the actual intention, right? Because a lot of people will do in NFT space, in the crypto space, you still have to be very careful because a lot of people will do like the rug pulls where essentially they hype up a token or something and then everybody buys in and then the people that bought in get screwed over. So just get to know the people behind the projects, get to know their track record, their reputation, and just figure out if there's any kind of utility or longevity for the project and also get to know the community. And those are kind of like the factors to look for.

NS: Yeah, yeah. Really good advice there… there's also if you do want to simply sell NFT’s of your music and that might even be as simply, as simple as the artwork or your single or your album. There is a company called SimpleMusic.com, and they actually plug it. They actually tie in with if you've got a Shopify website or Shopify account actually just look straight into it. I think they originally they set up to if you want to do music downloads and stuff like that from your Shopify, from your Shopify page, they'll plug into it and they're on this Solana blockchain and it's kind of it's just all very integrated. It's basically if you're like want to dip your toes and make it available, it's, it's a really easy option. We got, we're sitting right up with one of our, with one of our members, so. But yeah, I mean, I'm, I think I agree with everything you said, you know, with people looking at early 2000s, you know, even just like I wish, you know, even if you just spread it and put like $10 into that, all the different might be Amazon's in there and all those cause lots failed but then, you know, $10 in Amazon now what would that be worth today like and all the other opportunities that came off. I think you're completely right. And it is still a world that you know most people when you say are like you know do you know about NFT’s, they kind of heard of it, but they're not really into. And yet it's an exciting place right now.

So yeah, I think that is what most of the questions I kind of wanted to ask you and get your perspective on where can we find out more about you Isabella and Fame Hackers websites? You know what's your social media handles?

IB: Yeah the website is thefamehackers.com and my social handle is @izzword yeah I think it's a LinkedIn I'm pretty active on LinkedIn too, it's so crazy for especially if you're like on the music side on the music business side of things it's, it's a crazy platform, it's awesome.

NS: Yeah I mean I just started getting back into it. I, I heard LinkedIn's owned by Microsoft, Facebook and Instagram are owned by Facebook and Instagram and um, and what's the other one? And Twitter is owned by, I want to say Google or something like I'm sure Google or Twitter or something like that (not anymore obviously). But yeah, like Microsoft, they're really invested in making sure that LinkedIn does really well. And it's like if you share stuff there, that actually gets to people that you're going to reach is really good.

IB: Yeah. The LinkedIn is so crazy because like it's also like my fastest growing I think right now. And it's cool because if you are an artist, here's like the, the cool thing about and then if you are an artist and you do want to get more music supervisor, like supervision contacts, or if you want to get more management contacts or anything that has to do with the business side of the industry, not a lot of artists are on LinkedIn. So this is a good a place where you can actually join the platforms that they're actively on to build those connections. So as an artist, it's like a little bit of a ninja hack where this is how you actually get discovered. You start the connection yourself and it's really cool because the organic reach. So LinkedIn will push out content that's like, I just got hired, I just got promoted just because they're all like with all the platforms, if you look at their mission or vision statement, it'll tell you the content that they're going to push out because that is what they want the community on that platform to be.

So LinkedIn is all about you know, if you're hiring, that content gets pushed out. Any sort of like, you know, feel good, office type of experience that'll get pushed out so yeah, it's, it's more, more on those lines.

NS: That’s a good artist hack, you heard it here… Awesome. So yeah thank you again and you are going to as well, yeah we'll get that link to that framework as well, if we can link that of course on the show notes as well. There'll be links to everything. Thank you again for your time, this was one of my favorites. Honestly, I think I could chat with you for hours on this kind of stuff.

IB: Thank you, Nick. This was awesome. Yeah, I really enjoyed our chat. I was thinking the same. I was like, this is probably one of the best ones, the best conversations I've had, so I'm really grateful that you that you brought me on here.

NS: Thank you.

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